Until I hit the point where you started talking about the dunning-kruger effect I genuinely thought this was a piece of fiction! I am so amazed that those dudes tried to rob a bank with nothing but lemon juice on their face! Wow!
I'm definitely not attempting the lemon juice effect, but I loved the story and the analysis of how someone could actually believe that the lemon juice would create the invisibility effect. As an educator, I sometimes had students whose writing defied logic. When I would talk, privately, to the the child and asked them to explain that unexplainable, they would have a reponse that - of course - didn't explain, but to them....it did.
I think I'm going to write a piece of literacy. With P. Trump deciding to dismantle the board of education and the sweeping statements about American children not being able to read, I have a lot to say on that issue. Fasten your seat belt. (LOL)
I'm looking forward to reading it. Having been a despair to those who tried to keep me in the classroom, I welcome understanding the perspective of teachers and educators :D
I'm not sure there is a paradox. For some competent people their lack of, let's say, extrovertism, isn't anything to do with their level of competence. If they don't put themselves out there, so to speak, or learn the difference between humbleness (knowing your place) and humility (lowering yourself), then I think there is a different psychological mechanism at play here other than 'their level of competence'. Or multiple psychological mechanisms, ranging from the personal to the social, to their (yes, competent) perception of modern society, which tells them that they will be met with envy and resentment (by inferior types) if they go around being honest about their superior abilities (or ironically they'll be mistaken for people with DK syndrome). In a more psychologically healthy society competent types wouldn't have a problem expressing themselves or being accurate about their (superior) competence.
So I think this aspect of the problem stems from a psychologically unhealthy society which 'conditions' people to be deferential, or to defer to 'authority'. Likewise it conditions people to have 'doubt', by promoting the idea of 'relativism' and 'human fallibility', thus conditioning people to think 'I might be wrong' - in other words, it's deliberately attacking self-confidence.
So, whilst I am a big fan of Dunning-Kruger as it applies to stupid people (I see it all the time on social media! Well, in politics too for that matter; and science, and...), I do not agree with them about the reverse version (competent people). Furthermore, it's an example of how the fundamental error in so much of modern psychology research is that it's examining human beings in an unnatural environment (modern society), but assuming that's 'normal'. 'Normal' for humans is to look at them 'in the wild', which is living in small communes within the natural world (150 people etc.). You wouldn't, after all, stick a lion in a big cage, make observations, and say 'that's the normal behaviour of a lion'. It's the same with humans.
Ironically, then, I don't think you would get any DK effect in those small 150-people communes. I think a lot of the DK effect even for incompetent people comes down to this 'need' for 'social recognition' (see also Maslow's hierarchy of needs). In other words, I don't think it's actually a product of a 'cognitive' deficit (or metacognitive). It's actually a social psychology issue.
So maybe when we talk about incompetent people with DK syndrome, what we are really observing here is not cognitively-deficient people per se, but rather 'socially immature' people. But then again, this abusive society is almost designed to prevent social maturity, because socially mature people can't be controlled. Obviously - we get into the realm of conspiracy theories there. In terms of 'Brave New World', we're mainly talking 'Gammas' - Deltas and Epsilons definitely know their place (at the bottom), and I would define Alphas and Betas as having self-confidence, because they know they are superior (without being patronising). In an ideal version, that is. Gammas, in other words, are envious and resentful of Alphas and Betas.
Anyway - I do find the whole DK thing fascinating. Especially as one sees it pretty much everyday.
Thanks for your interesting thoughts, your comment goes deeper than my article ;-)
I find it a paradox that "competent people" are less "popular", giving more weight to what they don't know than to what they do know. It's certainly a bias issue that needs to be addressed. And on the environmental factor... great point! I think you're right when you say that smaller communities help, and since we're talking about information, if the environment is too big or too fast, it's much harder to control those social or social media mechanisms.
Until I hit the point where you started talking about the dunning-kruger effect I genuinely thought this was a piece of fiction! I am so amazed that those dudes tried to rob a bank with nothing but lemon juice on their face! Wow!
lol, when reality is more fiction than fiction. They should have worn clown masks, at least... :D
Hahaha I know right!? Surely they would’ve worn something! :)
I'm definitely not attempting the lemon juice effect, but I loved the story and the analysis of how someone could actually believe that the lemon juice would create the invisibility effect. As an educator, I sometimes had students whose writing defied logic. When I would talk, privately, to the the child and asked them to explain that unexplainable, they would have a reponse that - of course - didn't explain, but to them....it did.
This is really interesting, Sandy. It would be great to read something from you as an in-depth analysis, given your experience as an educator.
Michael, thanks a lot. I'll really think about doing something like that.
I think I'm going to write a piece of literacy. With P. Trump deciding to dismantle the board of education and the sweeping statements about American children not being able to read, I have a lot to say on that issue. Fasten your seat belt. (LOL)
I'm looking forward to reading it. Having been a despair to those who tried to keep me in the classroom, I welcome understanding the perspective of teachers and educators :D
I'm not sure there is a paradox. For some competent people their lack of, let's say, extrovertism, isn't anything to do with their level of competence. If they don't put themselves out there, so to speak, or learn the difference between humbleness (knowing your place) and humility (lowering yourself), then I think there is a different psychological mechanism at play here other than 'their level of competence'. Or multiple psychological mechanisms, ranging from the personal to the social, to their (yes, competent) perception of modern society, which tells them that they will be met with envy and resentment (by inferior types) if they go around being honest about their superior abilities (or ironically they'll be mistaken for people with DK syndrome). In a more psychologically healthy society competent types wouldn't have a problem expressing themselves or being accurate about their (superior) competence.
So I think this aspect of the problem stems from a psychologically unhealthy society which 'conditions' people to be deferential, or to defer to 'authority'. Likewise it conditions people to have 'doubt', by promoting the idea of 'relativism' and 'human fallibility', thus conditioning people to think 'I might be wrong' - in other words, it's deliberately attacking self-confidence.
So, whilst I am a big fan of Dunning-Kruger as it applies to stupid people (I see it all the time on social media! Well, in politics too for that matter; and science, and...), I do not agree with them about the reverse version (competent people). Furthermore, it's an example of how the fundamental error in so much of modern psychology research is that it's examining human beings in an unnatural environment (modern society), but assuming that's 'normal'. 'Normal' for humans is to look at them 'in the wild', which is living in small communes within the natural world (150 people etc.). You wouldn't, after all, stick a lion in a big cage, make observations, and say 'that's the normal behaviour of a lion'. It's the same with humans.
Ironically, then, I don't think you would get any DK effect in those small 150-people communes. I think a lot of the DK effect even for incompetent people comes down to this 'need' for 'social recognition' (see also Maslow's hierarchy of needs). In other words, I don't think it's actually a product of a 'cognitive' deficit (or metacognitive). It's actually a social psychology issue.
So maybe when we talk about incompetent people with DK syndrome, what we are really observing here is not cognitively-deficient people per se, but rather 'socially immature' people. But then again, this abusive society is almost designed to prevent social maturity, because socially mature people can't be controlled. Obviously - we get into the realm of conspiracy theories there. In terms of 'Brave New World', we're mainly talking 'Gammas' - Deltas and Epsilons definitely know their place (at the bottom), and I would define Alphas and Betas as having self-confidence, because they know they are superior (without being patronising). In an ideal version, that is. Gammas, in other words, are envious and resentful of Alphas and Betas.
Anyway - I do find the whole DK thing fascinating. Especially as one sees it pretty much everyday.
Thanks for your interesting thoughts, your comment goes deeper than my article ;-)
I find it a paradox that "competent people" are less "popular", giving more weight to what they don't know than to what they do know. It's certainly a bias issue that needs to be addressed. And on the environmental factor... great point! I think you're right when you say that smaller communities help, and since we're talking about information, if the environment is too big or too fast, it's much harder to control those social or social media mechanisms.