[please bear in mind this is written from the point of view of my main character Katrina talking about her parallel world, but the issues are the same; she starts off with their slightly advanced tech but then she gets on to Fermi/Drake etc.).
I had noticed it before when I visited your page, Evelyn. I'll def read your articles. We've got a lot of the same topics in common. It was great to find you!
I could definitely do you a SETI-related article, or the decipherment of those signals I mean. Unless you just want to do a cross post. I do think there's a lot they're not telling us (as per the Brookings report recommendations)...
I'm fine with whatever you want to write. I'd love to read in-depth analysis from you. And... I'm just reading your articles. They're thorough and jam-packed with info, just the way I like it :-)
I've been thinking about that too. If plausible aliens existed, they might not just be wary, they might not even care in terms of simply minding their own, it's even possible they've evolved differently and might have differing attitudes just like the Dark Forest theory.
There's also the idea that civilisations all have an expiration and our time lines might not intersect with those equally curious aliens.
Then there's the probability of dimensions which I would not like to think much about. Like floors, perhaps we might possibly be the ones occupying a certain floor, others being on the rest, if at all.
I don't know, but it's certainly fun to think about and I agree with the caution. I do think it's too optimistic to think aliens are eager to reveal or meet us on friendly terms. It's the more pragmatic approach.
Any encounter with aliens will probably end badly for one or both. While it’s easy to speculate that They will be very different for Us, the underlying patterns of “creation” have to be the same if They evolved on worlds similar to ours.
That's a very true comment that evolution/psychohistory would be the same for ETI. They would have to be social animals (you can't have science & tech without cooperation), thus their brains would be wired very similar to humans. Too many people ignore the evolution of the brain. Neuroscience, I mean. Social animals would also have culture (music, for example). Thus emotions, and positive/negative emotions at that. So in other words, understanding and communication should be a lot easier than people think.
Ah - it's that Lucifer effect and that Zimbardo, of the infamous Stanford Prison experiment. I thought it rang a bell. From some of my reading (it's been a while though so I'd have to re-check etc.) there are a lot of suspicions about the SPE, ranging from the extreme 'it was all a complete fraud and they were all actors' to the more moderate, but more believable 'selective results' and 'misrepresentation of what actually happened'. E.g. he doesn't talk about the people who refused to participate, or who quit the study, or the examples where neither the prisoners nor the guards did anything out of the ordinary. I'm very much inclined to believe this latter explanation, which should rather lead to the conclusion that the only 'guards' who behaved sadistically were *already* sadists.
There's a similar thing with the Milgram electric shock experiment, the set up of which was deeply flawed from the outset. Especially the fact that if the participants know it's an experiment then they will not behave normally, or as they would 'in the wild' so to speak.
Anyhow, although I am deeply sceptical about these sorts of claims of how humans have a dark side, I do find the whole thing very interesting, as I've always been totally fascinated by psychology. I'd best not get started or I'll be here all day/night. I did write a little series about 'social psychology & the cabal' some while back, in which I was kind of arguing that we share this planet with another humanoid species which looks pretty identical to homo sapiens, but has a different brain structure/functioning, and it's members of that species who are evil. They're just very good at concealing themselves (blending in, so to speak), because they are vastly outnumbered. Some people might view this idea as a conspiracy theory although I'd prefer to think of it as neuroscience & anthropology.
One irony here is that in order to conceal themselves they need to convince people that 'all humans have a dark side' - in other words, the 'evil ones' are 'also simply humans'. I personally don't believe humans have a dark side. The reason being that in order to get someone to do something 'evil' you have to convince them it's 'self-defence', in other words 'actually a good thing' - if you say 'I want you to do this and it's evil' then normal humans would say no.
So yeah, it's a fascinating subject and I've got far too much to say on it!
What you're saying is really interesting. Can you send me some sources? I'm also looking into some counter-information about this experiment. I also think the data wasn't completely honest and was reported only as it supported the theory.
To me, the way to resolve Fermi’s Paradox is to turn our thinking around. Rather than asking, “if the universe is so old and so large, then where are the aliens?” we should instead ask, “if aliens do exist, what factors needed to happen?”
In that regard, we can realize that something in Fermi’s Paradox is flawed. Maybe the mainstream materialistic understanding of how life develops is wrong/flawed. Maybe the universe isn’t as big as we think popular science claims. Maybe the universe is younger than scientists think it is.
People saw Fermi’s Paradox and ended up crafting various fanciful explanations as to why we haven’t seen aliens yet given our understanding of the universe. This is cognitive dissonance. But maybe instead we should realize that on some level, our understanding of the universe is wrong.
You're spot on, we don't really know much about the universe and sometimes we're totally wrong. Luckily doubt is what makes the machine work. Thanks for your comment, Michael!
Nicely done Michael! There are several directions that I think are plausible. Any advanced Civ that goes digital will have more than enough virtual space to explore by converting their sun to a computer. They would no longer be interested in space time as we understand it. Or they could merge with the quantum system underlying classical reality, in which case they will be everywhere but still disinterested in us. Then there is Lem’s Solaris or Fiasco conjecture. Alien intelligence may be so strange that even if we came face to face with it neither can understand the other.
I love your mind Michael, and how it works and explores the greater possibilities that transcend our understanding.
“the universe is as vast and ancient as we believe, and if life is supposed to emerge on multiple worlds, then why don’t we see any clear signs of advanced civilizations?”
I like to study earth ancient civilization and even the more current modern ones like those said to have been established in the 1800s like Salt Lake City, Utah. Did the good Mormons actually found the city and not build it, like history. But who build these amazing structures? Where did they go?
Amazing questions. We could extend them to the ancient Egyptians or certain civilizations of Mesopotamia. Thinking about time and space in a different way. So exciting. Thanks for your comment, Charlotte!
When we look at the stars, we’re seeing light that left them hundreds, thousands, or even millions of years ago—it just took that long to reach us. Space is huge, and signals take time to travel. We've only been sending out signals for what, 100 years? We have barely scratched the surface of places there might be civilizations advanced enough to listen for them. Aliens would not necessarily know there are humans here, they might just be receiving data about the dinosaurs... or the ice age.
I don’t know who said it but there is a quote about this topic which I always harken back to which is something like (I’m paraphrasing): ‘whether there is other life in the universe or not — both options are equally terrifying.’
As always, Michael, you got me thinking about the fun stuff :)
Three Body Problem has been coming up so much for me recently; I just started reading the books after rewatching the show. And now your post. Pretty sure there’s a message 🤔 regardless, I’m feel #5 is likely the most accurate - communication is not like we imagine. The “aliens” are here, have always been here, and have wiped us out a few times I believe. Our science is so fundamental, we are still debating the existence of subtle energies and things that cannot be directly observable by our current, very limited technology. I think the truth is closer to the Matrix - when we “wake up” we are going to see that it wasn’t that there was nothing there. More like our world is being manipulated or contained and we can’t yet perceive what’s actually out there.
Hey Nicole, I'm with you on thinking the world we live in is kinda Matrix. But with the red pill and the blue pill, which one are you going to pick? Thanks for your comment, I loved it. Really :-)
Great piece and something that always fascinates me. The more I think about it the more I think life on Earth is early. At least this way we don't have to worry about an alien invasion anytime soon!
Michael, that was a terrific article that really set me to thinking about our aloneness and the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere. I also read, and enjoyed, Cixin Liu's The Three Body Problem, but I think our biggest problem is our inability to deal with our own planet's problems.
Supposedly religious people on our planet fail to appreciate the diversity of life on our planet and to celebrate it, respect it and learn to live and work together to help our house (the planet Earth) flourish. Strong men (almost exclusively) grab power and use it (almost exclusively) to benefit their own power, wealth and couldn't care less about the welfare of the masses.
Right now we'd better worry about this planet before we concern ourselves with the possiblity of life on other worlds.
Thanks Sandy, I'm glad you liked it! I think each of us is gifted for something. Some for caring for this planet and others for studying its connection to the universe. It's up to us to find our personal gift. But I agree with you, first we should take care of our world here and now.
I absolutely agree that scientists who question and want answers to the possibility of life in the universe are doing the right thing. I just hope we figure out our own planet before we make contact. We wouldn't want to 'blow it!'
I absolutely agree. We can only hope that those who do research are independent and honest. Unfortunately, power feeds power for power's sake, as you wrote.
I enjoyed this piece very much, Michael, lots of fascinating theories and information. Do I want aliens to find us? The curious monkey in me says a resounding "YES!," the scaredy-cat says "No, thanks, I'll pass." Cixin Liu's book sounds like a must-read for all sci-fi lovers, thank you for the tip!
I'm a bit of the cautious wolf, I only approach if I fully trust. ;-) The Three body problem's a nice reading. I'm on book 2 of the trilogy. Let me know if you pick it up :-)
I've written extensively about all of these questions. This first one here (Dexos part 4): https://inadifferentplace.substack.com/p/welcome-to-dexos-part-iv?r=2s9hod
[please bear in mind this is written from the point of view of my main character Katrina talking about her parallel world, but the issues are the same; she starts off with their slightly advanced tech but then she gets on to Fermi/Drake etc.).
You will also want to read part 5: this deals with the SETI signals (Ozma/Wow/BLC1 - all of which are part of a sequence - i.e. same sender). There's also my Event Day series, in particular minus six which is the decipherment of the wow signal: https://inadifferentplace.substack.com/p/event-day-minus-six-a-definitive?r=2s9hod
and minus thirteen, which provides you with a solution to the Fermi Paradox (although humans aren't going to like it very much!): https://inadifferentplace.substack.com/p/event-day-minus-thirteen-intervention?r=2s9hod
All of these issues crop up in my stories as well. (Thank you for subscribing, by the way!)
I had noticed it before when I visited your page, Evelyn. I'll def read your articles. We've got a lot of the same topics in common. It was great to find you!
I could definitely do you a SETI-related article, or the decipherment of those signals I mean. Unless you just want to do a cross post. I do think there's a lot they're not telling us (as per the Brookings report recommendations)...
I'm fine with whatever you want to write. I'd love to read in-depth analysis from you. And... I'm just reading your articles. They're thorough and jam-packed with info, just the way I like it :-)
Likewise!
I've been thinking about that too. If plausible aliens existed, they might not just be wary, they might not even care in terms of simply minding their own, it's even possible they've evolved differently and might have differing attitudes just like the Dark Forest theory.
There's also the idea that civilisations all have an expiration and our time lines might not intersect with those equally curious aliens.
Then there's the probability of dimensions which I would not like to think much about. Like floors, perhaps we might possibly be the ones occupying a certain floor, others being on the rest, if at all.
I don't know, but it's certainly fun to think about and I agree with the caution. I do think it's too optimistic to think aliens are eager to reveal or meet us on friendly terms. It's the more pragmatic approach.
Great write up!
Yours are all interesting interpolations. I must say that combining aliens and many worlds has its charm. Thanks a lot for reading!
Any encounter with aliens will probably end badly for one or both. While it’s easy to speculate that They will be very different for Us, the underlying patterns of “creation” have to be the same if They evolved on worlds similar to ours.
That's a very true comment that evolution/psychohistory would be the same for ETI. They would have to be social animals (you can't have science & tech without cooperation), thus their brains would be wired very similar to humans. Too many people ignore the evolution of the brain. Neuroscience, I mean. Social animals would also have culture (music, for example). Thus emotions, and positive/negative emotions at that. So in other words, understanding and communication should be a lot easier than people think.
Ever read "The Lucifer Effect"?
I have not, no. Tell me more... (or a link will do - mind you I shouldn't be so lazy but go and look it up for myself)
It's not exactly the same thing, but you made me think of brain evolution studies, but from a moral standpoint. BTW, here you go:
https://www.amazon.com/Lucifer-Effect-Understanding-Good-People/dp/0812974441
Ah - it's that Lucifer effect and that Zimbardo, of the infamous Stanford Prison experiment. I thought it rang a bell. From some of my reading (it's been a while though so I'd have to re-check etc.) there are a lot of suspicions about the SPE, ranging from the extreme 'it was all a complete fraud and they were all actors' to the more moderate, but more believable 'selective results' and 'misrepresentation of what actually happened'. E.g. he doesn't talk about the people who refused to participate, or who quit the study, or the examples where neither the prisoners nor the guards did anything out of the ordinary. I'm very much inclined to believe this latter explanation, which should rather lead to the conclusion that the only 'guards' who behaved sadistically were *already* sadists.
There's a similar thing with the Milgram electric shock experiment, the set up of which was deeply flawed from the outset. Especially the fact that if the participants know it's an experiment then they will not behave normally, or as they would 'in the wild' so to speak.
Anyhow, although I am deeply sceptical about these sorts of claims of how humans have a dark side, I do find the whole thing very interesting, as I've always been totally fascinated by psychology. I'd best not get started or I'll be here all day/night. I did write a little series about 'social psychology & the cabal' some while back, in which I was kind of arguing that we share this planet with another humanoid species which looks pretty identical to homo sapiens, but has a different brain structure/functioning, and it's members of that species who are evil. They're just very good at concealing themselves (blending in, so to speak), because they are vastly outnumbered. Some people might view this idea as a conspiracy theory although I'd prefer to think of it as neuroscience & anthropology.
One irony here is that in order to conceal themselves they need to convince people that 'all humans have a dark side' - in other words, the 'evil ones' are 'also simply humans'. I personally don't believe humans have a dark side. The reason being that in order to get someone to do something 'evil' you have to convince them it's 'self-defence', in other words 'actually a good thing' - if you say 'I want you to do this and it's evil' then normal humans would say no.
So yeah, it's a fascinating subject and I've got far too much to say on it!
What you're saying is really interesting. Can you send me some sources? I'm also looking into some counter-information about this experiment. I also think the data wasn't completely honest and was reported only as it supported the theory.
You made me think of the movie Independence Day. Let's hope that if anyone comes to our part, we've got the right virus for their system! :)
To me, the way to resolve Fermi’s Paradox is to turn our thinking around. Rather than asking, “if the universe is so old and so large, then where are the aliens?” we should instead ask, “if aliens do exist, what factors needed to happen?”
In that regard, we can realize that something in Fermi’s Paradox is flawed. Maybe the mainstream materialistic understanding of how life develops is wrong/flawed. Maybe the universe isn’t as big as we think popular science claims. Maybe the universe is younger than scientists think it is.
People saw Fermi’s Paradox and ended up crafting various fanciful explanations as to why we haven’t seen aliens yet given our understanding of the universe. This is cognitive dissonance. But maybe instead we should realize that on some level, our understanding of the universe is wrong.
You're spot on, we don't really know much about the universe and sometimes we're totally wrong. Luckily doubt is what makes the machine work. Thanks for your comment, Michael!
Nicely done Michael! There are several directions that I think are plausible. Any advanced Civ that goes digital will have more than enough virtual space to explore by converting their sun to a computer. They would no longer be interested in space time as we understand it. Or they could merge with the quantum system underlying classical reality, in which case they will be everywhere but still disinterested in us. Then there is Lem’s Solaris or Fiasco conjecture. Alien intelligence may be so strange that even if we came face to face with it neither can understand the other.
Wonderful, Steve. You should write an article and expand on your comment. It would be really interesting. And I would love to read it!
Maybe we can cook up a series of articles?
Why not?
I love your mind Michael, and how it works and explores the greater possibilities that transcend our understanding.
“the universe is as vast and ancient as we believe, and if life is supposed to emerge on multiple worlds, then why don’t we see any clear signs of advanced civilizations?”
I like to study earth ancient civilization and even the more current modern ones like those said to have been established in the 1800s like Salt Lake City, Utah. Did the good Mormons actually found the city and not build it, like history. But who build these amazing structures? Where did they go?
Amazing questions. We could extend them to the ancient Egyptians or certain civilizations of Mesopotamia. Thinking about time and space in a different way. So exciting. Thanks for your comment, Charlotte!
When we look at the stars, we’re seeing light that left them hundreds, thousands, or even millions of years ago—it just took that long to reach us. Space is huge, and signals take time to travel. We've only been sending out signals for what, 100 years? We have barely scratched the surface of places there might be civilizations advanced enough to listen for them. Aliens would not necessarily know there are humans here, they might just be receiving data about the dinosaurs... or the ice age.
Good point! You would have to find a way to use a wormhole, like in Interstellar, but again, we're talking science fiction.
I don’t know who said it but there is a quote about this topic which I always harken back to which is something like (I’m paraphrasing): ‘whether there is other life in the universe or not — both options are equally terrifying.’
As always, Michael, you got me thinking about the fun stuff :)
You got it! I'll go find the quote! Thanks, man ;-)
Three Body Problem has been coming up so much for me recently; I just started reading the books after rewatching the show. And now your post. Pretty sure there’s a message 🤔 regardless, I’m feel #5 is likely the most accurate - communication is not like we imagine. The “aliens” are here, have always been here, and have wiped us out a few times I believe. Our science is so fundamental, we are still debating the existence of subtle energies and things that cannot be directly observable by our current, very limited technology. I think the truth is closer to the Matrix - when we “wake up” we are going to see that it wasn’t that there was nothing there. More like our world is being manipulated or contained and we can’t yet perceive what’s actually out there.
You might like this, which gives you some stuff to think about (especially early galactic history, when life was too few and far between for intervention to take place, thus nothing to stop imperialist, dystopian species from forging empires): https://inadifferentplace.substack.com/p/event-day-minus-thirteen-intervention?r=2s9hod
Thanks, I'll check it out right away!
Hey Nicole, I'm with you on thinking the world we live in is kinda Matrix. But with the red pill and the blue pill, which one are you going to pick? Thanks for your comment, I loved it. Really :-)
Great piece and something that always fascinates me. The more I think about it the more I think life on Earth is early. At least this way we don't have to worry about an alien invasion anytime soon!
https://amturnbull.substack.com/p/we-are-early-probably
Thanks, Alex! Ya made my day ;-)
Michael, that was a terrific article that really set me to thinking about our aloneness and the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere. I also read, and enjoyed, Cixin Liu's The Three Body Problem, but I think our biggest problem is our inability to deal with our own planet's problems.
Supposedly religious people on our planet fail to appreciate the diversity of life on our planet and to celebrate it, respect it and learn to live and work together to help our house (the planet Earth) flourish. Strong men (almost exclusively) grab power and use it (almost exclusively) to benefit their own power, wealth and couldn't care less about the welfare of the masses.
Right now we'd better worry about this planet before we concern ourselves with the possiblity of life on other worlds.
Thanks Sandy, I'm glad you liked it! I think each of us is gifted for something. Some for caring for this planet and others for studying its connection to the universe. It's up to us to find our personal gift. But I agree with you, first we should take care of our world here and now.
I absolutely agree that scientists who question and want answers to the possibility of life in the universe are doing the right thing. I just hope we figure out our own planet before we make contact. We wouldn't want to 'blow it!'
I absolutely agree. We can only hope that those who do research are independent and honest. Unfortunately, power feeds power for power's sake, as you wrote.
I enjoyed this piece very much, Michael, lots of fascinating theories and information. Do I want aliens to find us? The curious monkey in me says a resounding "YES!," the scaredy-cat says "No, thanks, I'll pass." Cixin Liu's book sounds like a must-read for all sci-fi lovers, thank you for the tip!
I'm a bit of the cautious wolf, I only approach if I fully trust. ;-) The Three body problem's a nice reading. I'm on book 2 of the trilogy. Let me know if you pick it up :-)
I've been thinking about reading this book for a while, I might read it sooner now.
You'll like it!